Welcome to Non-Beta Alpha. I’m Ryan Morfin. Now, today’s episode, we have Ted Koenig, CEO of Monroe Capital, talking to us about private credit underwriting post-COVID. This is Non-Beta Alpha. Ted, welcome to the show. Thanks for joining us today.
Thanks for having me, Ryan. It’s a pleasure.
We really appreciate you talking to our viewers about especially private credit. It’s been on a tear for the last decade, secular trend of capital flowing into private credit. How has the industry in Europe change from pre-COVID to post-COVID as relates to just fundraising credit and performance?
I think you have to look back at kind of what is private credit and why is it been responsible for the single largest growth and asset class allocations over the last 10 years? Really what happened was it started in the financial crisis back in 2008. Alternative investments were a small part of overall portfolio allocation, both institutional and high net worth retail. What’s happened is that in the crisis, everything converged and was correlated. When you look at bonds, look at stocks, real estate, private equity, all asset classes converged and became correlated with losses other than one specific asset class and that was private credit.
Private credit is loans to middle market companies, large middle market companies, small middle market companies, non-traded, illiquid loans. Those were loans to companies that held up in the financial crisis and paid good returns. And then post financial crisis as institutional investors really led the trend in growing asset class, high net-worth retail investors followed. So, you had a 10-year history of a lot of wind at the back in this asset class, and all it does is generate return. It’s a current return asset class 8 to 10% current returns. We’ve done 10% now for about 20 years with our institutional investors, our retail investors, high net worth ROIAs. There’s a place in the portfolio for it.
So, if you look at a portfolio allocation, the old days it was 60/40, 60 bonds, 40 stocks, everybody went to sleep and went away. Today, it’s 20, 30, 40% alternatives. You can’t invest anymore in fixed income treasuries because they’re paying 40, 50 basis points from a 10-year treasury. You can’t pay your bills if you’re an institution or a family office on those returns. So, it’s gotten a lot more interest. It’s popping up in everyone’s portfolios. So, that’s where we were when we got into COVID. COVID isn’t too dissimilar from the financial crisis that’s caused a dislocation. It’s caused a dislocation on an industry-by-industry basis, company-by-company basis.
If you look at a lot of industries, most healthcare, cloud services, retail, most retail that was consumer products, toilet paper, cleaning solutions, Lysol, you couldn’t get enough of that stuff. The market’s been really hot. On the other hand, you got a whole bunch of industries that have suffered because they’ve had business interruption, closures. So, private credit mirrors that. The private credit firms are generally in 50% or less loan-to-value. So, it’s a lot different than a private equity investment when you’re buying into companies that have 10, 12, 14 times price earnings multiple. We’re coming into those deals, but we’re coming in at 40%, 50%, 60% loan-to-value. So, we’re the safer attachment point. That’s really the key is safety, capital preservation, and return.
Have a lot of the executives in the credit space… For the troubled industries, is their amendments to covenants coming, or how are they going to work through some of this unprecedented demand destruction in industries that at no fault of the management team, just were dealt a deck of cards that nobody was really underwriting for?
Yeah, that’s a good question. There’s really two different situations when it comes to that. One is good company, bad luck, bad economics, bad market. Then those situations, what happens is the lender sit down with the company, company management, private equity sponsors, try to work through the problem. It generally is a short-term problem. It’s a working capital issue. It’s a liquidity issue. Usually, there’s covenant violations. We’ve done that in a bunch of our companies.
We have 508 companies in our portfolio. Those types of situations, we work with the sponsors, work with management, figure out a way to waive covenants, reset covenants, maybe delay an interest payment, delay a principal payment from Q1 to Q2, Q2 to Q3 and figure out a way to work proactively with the company. That’s bucket one.
Bucket two companies are companies that are just endemically in a bad place either industry situation, capital stack. We’ve got some companies that were purchased at 12 times, price earnings multiple, refinanced at five, six times. Today, it looks like a 25 times price earnings multiple and 20 times leverage ratio. Those companies, whether they’re airlines, whether they’re hotel leisure, dental practice management roll ups, podiatry roll ups, elective surgery, elective medical procedures, these are endemically troubled businesses today because people, consumers are going. They’re not buying. Those companies have a different issue.
They have capital stack issues, they have capital structure issues. In those situations, we’re sitting down with the ownership and we’re trying to rightsize the capital structure. Very often there’s some hard conversations with private equity sponsors about stepping up and cleaning up the capital stack, putting more money and to rightsize the company. There, I think you’re going to see over the next few quarters, some valuation challenges. A lot of these private equity firms had a pretty good run the last three or four years. Deals were getting done, multiples kept increasing, private equity firms were selling to other private equity firms. It’s a much different situation now in a lot of these industries.
I’ve heard from other folks in the private credit side that as an industry, and I know it’s not allocated across different firms equally, but up to one third of their portfolios have some type of impact to earnings from COVID. Would you agree with that, or how do you size kind of the trouble of the global portfolio from kind of your conversations with peers in the industry?
Yeah, I talk a lot to other CEOs that run companies in our space. I will tell you that the newer players, the last two or three or four year guys, that got into the space to tended to move into areas that were the hot areas and these tended to be a lot of these practice management, elective surgeries. They tended to be a lot of these health clubs. I mean Orangetheory and Pure Barre, Bar Method. Gold’s Gyms, a lot of these fitness businesses were the rage over the last couple of years. That’s where a lot of the money went, from PE dollars. A lot of restaurant deals actually got done the last few years. All of these industries have gotten hit pretty hard by COVID.
So, I would expect a lot of the firms that have heavy concentration in these industries to be playing defense now, mostly for the next six months, even into 2021. The firms that are tending to play more often, so the firms that have been in this business for a while and have seen the cycles that have steered clear from a lot of the concentrations and anomalies in this business. I mean our business again, you have to remember, private credit is a business. That’s capital preservation.
Our goal is not to hit home runs. Our goal is to hit singles and collect income every quarter. Firms that have taken that approach will hit singles, will collect their income, will go on. They have a well-diversified portfolio, well diversified by industry, well diversified by sponsor, well diversified by geographic region. Those are the types of firms I think that you’ll see play offense the rest of this year. A lot of our peers are going to be playing defense.
Because of that, the newer vintage managers, you think they’re going to have a harder time raising later vintage funds. I mean, there’ll be consolidation in the space again.
Yeah, it always happens. I mean, we’ve been doing this for quite a while. I look back at the.com crash in the early 2000s. I look back at the financial crisis in 2008. The same thing happens. For the two, three years following the financial disruption, we have the greatest single investment opportunity, vintage for performance. The challenge is those same two to three years are the hardest possible times to raise money, because institutions tend to be out over their skis, or their allocations tend to be upside down. The same thing happens with the retail investors, it’s a lot more emotional decision. People tend to clam up.
What we’re seeing across the board is the institutions that have been partners with us for a long time are actually technically getting more involved in the space and going deeper. A lot of the registered investment advisors that have come onto the platform over the years are seeing that and following suits and increasing allocations right now, because I think 2020 and 2021 will be really good vintages from private credit. The reason why is because a lot of players are sidelined right now. Leverage is down on new deals, pricing is up. So, from a risk return standpoint, I’m getting a much better risk return today that I was six months ago when we were in a highly competitive and overheated environment.
You mentioned this prior and like you said, the institutions that know you guys and trust you guys long term are doubling down tactically, but you mentioned that institutions are allocating more into alt and alt income, how are they looking at that? Because I think there’s still a disparity between what I’ll call retail capital markets and institutional capital markets. The institutional folks, they know 60/40 model’s dead. How do you view the right kind of alt allocation from your conversations with institutional money managers?
I’ll tell you, everyone does it a little different, but I’ll tell you some common themes. The common themes are traditional fixed income is pretty much dead today. Universities, hospitals, healthcare institutions, pension funds, they can’t hit their 7, 8% annual reinvestment expense burden by investing in traditional fixed income. That’s out the window. High yield bonds, that used to be the other piece of it. Public high yield bonds, the pricing there has come down, but worse yet is covenants have gone away. Documentation has been really destroyed to the borrower favor, and leverage multiples are very high. So, both of those dynamics have pushed traditional fixed income investors into these alternatives. So, we’re seeing more real estate. We’re seeing more private equity, infrastructure.
Private credit is probably leading the pack in terms of allocation. To give you just some idea, historically, we saw public pension funds with 2, 3% allocations to private credit. Then it went to 5, 6% then 10%. We’re seeing between 15 and 20% allocations now in public pension funds and private credit. That means that there’s probably 30 to 40% alternatives, because private credit’s picking up almost half of the alternative allocations in these public plans, and it’s still secret. It’s been a good place to invest over the years, but it generates returns. Somehow, these plans have to hit their 70% bogeys. There’s very few places in the market today where you can do that on a consistent basis without taking big capital preservation risk.
That increase in allocation, how do you balance you that view that it’s because companies are staying private longer, so they want private credit solution; or is it that the institutional investors want to go lower into the real economy and to that small and medium sized enterprise capital stack?
It’s a combination, Ryan. I think of two things. One is safety. If you look at your loss given default, private credit’s probably the best place because you’re at the very top of the capital stack, you’re senior secured first lien loans. That’s better than mezzanine, that’s better than junior secure, that’s better than equity. It’s better than any other place on the stack. So, if you start with a safety capital preservation view, you default into private credit. Number two, they need consistent returns. They’re building portfolio models for 10 years, 20 years, 30 years.
Think about insurance companies, they’re writing insurance today on 30-year-old people with the intention that that policy is going to come due 35, 40 years. They need certainty as much as they can in terms of planning for that. They don’t want to be subject to macro market swings. They don’t want to have market manipulation. They don’t want to see OPEC do something in oil, China do something with respect to trade. It’s the one place that you can hide out. Middle market, smaller middle market private credit, it’s US denominated dollars, it’s US system. It’s US customers. It’s US supply chain. There’s no foreign currency or hedging risk.
So, if you think about it, it’s almost a perfect bubble for investing in a capital preservation current yield if you want to try and fix as many variables as you can. As we’ve watched, the large Fortune 1000 companies, they’re subject to all kinds of import-export issues, supply chain issues, currency issues, inflation, deflation in certain markets. It’s just more complicated. That’s not to say you don’t invest there, but what’s happening is the institutional market and I’m watching the retail, the high net worth and the ROIAs. ROIAS tend to follow institutions.
If you look at over the years over the last 20 years, registered investment advisors and high net worth investors, family offices follow institutions, and that’s what’s happening in the market today. The largest single increase on a percentage basis for us right now, new capital dollars coming in, is coming in from the high net worth, retail investor, accredited, non-accredited in the market. So that’s where I see the big growth rate for the asset class.
A lot of your funds I know are private and you also have a public BDC. There’s been a lot of volatility, just to the beta correlation, I guess, of maybe, the overall market and then the BDCs. I mean, what are your thoughts on some of the volatility we’ve seen in the public space as a sector not to name any names, but what are your thoughts that are driving kind of the volatility in that space?
Interest rates is one. I think, COVID is another. Anytime in the public markets, again, you’re going to see movements, what you should be focusing on those is dividend yields. You’re still seeing double digit dividend yields in the space, in the BDC space. That’s the one place that there really hasn’t been any real dividend compression. You do see some volatility and some pricing, but that tends to be more market driven. I tell people, once you decide to be a current yield investor, focus on what’s important, which is the current yield. Don’t get bollixed up by what happens month to month in terms of the stock prices and some of this, because stock prices move for reasons that a lot of smart people don’t understand.
If you’d have told me that all the car rental agencies and the airlines wouldn’t be flying, restaurants are closing, autos aren’t selling, nobody’s going to hotels and the stock market is up, past where we started on all this, I’ll tell you, “You’re crazy. There’s not a chance in hell.” But the government keeps pumping money into investment grade bonds and equities and that’s what happens. You can’t beat the Fed at this game. At some point, the air is going to let out of the system and a lot of people are going to be disappointed. So, I tend to look at value, look at price earnings, look at yield.
The nice thing about the BDCs and other yield stocks is you’re getting yield. A lot of people today are able to pick up good prices, because there’s been some trading off in this market. That’s because the government stopped supporting non-investment grade or the segment. If you go and want to buy a bunch of AT&T bonds, you’re going to see that that hasn’t moved because the government bought most of them two weeks ago. So, it’s really a question of where the opportunities are for investors. I tell a lot of people stick to your knitting. Make sure you’ve got a good diversified portfolio, but make sure you got some good current income, because that’s going to get you through the rough patches.
Yeah, I think the Fed put is somewhat real, but I guess the question is if they’re going to continue to inject steroids into the economy, strategically, what’s going to happen to credit spreads? Do you think as they start to peel off the high yield market, they’re going to gap out or do you think there’s enough capital out there looking for that income, like you said, to sustain and absorb the new issuance?
Well, again, public stuff, high yield, investment grade is a little different than the private. The public stuff, I think you’re going to see the government continue to support at least through the election, because the goal there is always been to prop the markets up as much as possible. We’ll see what happens after the election in November. But in the non-investment grade space, in the private credit space, I think you’re seeing some really good value because it’s a supply and demand issue. Fundraising is harder.
A lot of the new players are going to hiccup, I think. You’re not going to see as much as many new entrants. So, we’re seeing already 100 to 200 basis points of spread differential just in the last 60 days in our business, and I like that. If we like something at all 550, 600 three, four months ago. I like it more at all 700, 750 today.
What are your thoughts on the economy today? I mean, where are we and where do you think interest rates go from here?
Well, two questions, where are we? It depends where you’re sitting and what window you’re looking out of. If you’re looking into an Orangetheory or into a Hilton Hotel or a Delta Airlines or American Airlines, it doesn’t look so good. If you’re looking at Amazon or you’re looking at the guys that make Lysol or Clorox, the world looks pretty good today. So, it’s really a question I think of where you’re sitting. I think you have to take that into consideration because this crisis, this pandemic, this economic disturbance is different than the last one.
The last one was a Wall Street-led problem that affected mostly Wall Street. This is a Main Street’s problem that’s affecting the consumer. The consumer is not going to come back as quickly as Wall Street did last time, and the banks did last time. The consumer I believe is going to take a lot longer. They’re going to be much more careful. They’re going to think twice about where they’re putting discretionary dollars. We’ve already seen discretionary purchases, higher end retail, vacations, things like that, pretty much evaporate. It’s going to be a while I think, well into 2021 until you start to see the consumer coming back. So, anything that’s consumer focused, from an economy standpoint, is going to be more challenged.
On a business side, software companies, cloud management companies, logistics supply chain companies are all doing well and going to do better, because companies are going to be managing more efficiently. So, that’s from an economy standpoint. Interest rates, I think we’re stuck.
I hate to say this, but I think the United States is finally coming around to the rest of the world. We do a lot of business with institutional investors in Asia, in Europe, in the Middle East. The investors in Asia and Europe had been conditioned to pretty much zero interest rates now for the last two, three years. I mean, in Germany, they’re selling hundred-year bonds for practically zero, zero return. There’s negative interest rates throughout most of Asia. I never thought I would say that there’s a possibility that we’d see negative interest rates in the US. But I think for the foreseeable future, we’re going to see very, very low interest rates.
So, what that’s going to do, it’s going to spur two things. One, it’s going to spur yield search. So, whether it’s pension funds, insurance companies, high net worth individuals, family offices, they’re going to search for yield. That’s going to be a much more important element of the portfolio allocations. Number two, I think you’re going to see more aggressive risk taking. That’s not a great thing, but I think risk taking drives stock market valuations. It certainly drives certain sectors of investments, not in a good way either. I think that keeping rates down pushes money into risk taking assets. I don’t think that’s good long term for us.
Yeah, it’s interesting. November’s going to determine a lot. I mean, I think it’s going to determine if globalization is dead or not, and if the supply chain comes back to the States. If it does come back, the banking sector and the Fed are going to have to finance what could be trillions of dollars of infrastructure that have to be rerouted new capital flows, if a trade war turns into a financial war. It’s going to be interesting to see. I think you hit on an earlier just to what extent can QE Infinity go on without having solvency risk. I mean, what is your thoughts? I mean, debt to GDP is exorbitant in Japan. Are we headed there as a country do you think?
I think we almost have to. I’m not a big believer of this again. I don’t think that you managed whether you’re a family, whether you’re a business or an organization, you kind of live within your means. But what we’ve done as a country is we’ve just been throwing money at problems. We just continue to print money here. The first series of it was this PPP money that companies took, and it didn’t solve a problem. What it did is it created kind of a kind of a short-term welfare issue for businesses. Maybe it was some balance sheet repair for companies, which serve the short-term need, but it didn’t solve the long-term problem. Then, we’re coming out now quietly with capital in certain industries to support companies.
My long-term question is are we making companies more efficient? Are we making business more efficient, or are we rewarding inefficiency? Are companies going to be less competitive later because they’ve been asleep at the switch? So, I think that long term, we’re going to move much more towards the rest of the world with higher debt to GDP, which is it’s not great from a savings economy standpoint. It’s going to open up our most vulnerable and our safety net population to much more higher risk than otherwise would be. That’s where you start to have more social issues, and then we’ve just seen pieces of it.
I mean, I’m in Chicago. A lot of people in New York, L.A., Boston, Dallas, some of the bigger cities, you’re starting to see the effects of what happens when you continue to pump money into kind of investment grade businesses and higher debt to GDP without solving the social issues. Whoever is in the next administration, I think that’s going to be a challenge how to do that, and still maintain incentives for investments for businesses. That’s the biggest I think challenge we have that the smart guys can figure out. In my world, I just get paid to generate return. I just have to focus on generating return for institutional clients or high net worth clients, so they can do what they need to do.
Yeah, Wall Street’s been bailed out a few times. I think Main Street’s trying to scratch their head and saying, “Wait, well, if we’re the ones getting crippled, most of unemployment is at the called the entry-level service industries. What about us?” So, I think it’s going to be interesting to see how that plays out in November. Switching gears a little bit to just more of kind of personal leadership standpoint. How have you guys changed your business or how have you changed? You lead a pretty big organization. What have you guys done differently to keep organizations up or keep communication up across your organization?
It’s kind of a funny story. So, about a year ago, I had the leaders of a variety of groups in my organization operations, treasury, compliance, underwriting, they came in. They told me that, “We’re in a new world. What we had to do was we had to readjust our thinking as employers and allow people to work remote.” We had to go to a flexible work schedule where everybody had the opportunity to take one day a week or so and work remote. To show you how with it I was, I said, “No.” I said, I don’t think that’s going to work. I don’t think it’s feasible, and it’s not the right thing to do for the company.”
So, to show you how much I know, since the first week of March now, three to three and a half months, almost four months, I got 100% of my organization working remote. We’re funding a couple hundred million dollars probably a week. As I said, we’ve got 508 companies in our portfolio that we’re managing. We’re fundraising. We’re probably going to raise $3 to $4 billion here across the world over the next six months. So, everything has been proceeding. We had a business continuity plan that was our backup plan. That if something happened and we couldn’t be in the office, everybody worked in remote. Every group had teams, supervisors kind of met, lead with the teams. The teams met every day.
Much to my chagrin, I will tell you that seems to be working okay. Everybody’s in remote locations, working at home. I’ve come to the office a few times a week just because I like to be in the office. If people need me, they know where I am. But other than that, I’m working remote as well. Most of the people we do business with are working remote. Whether it’s the biggest pension funds in Korea or Abu Dhabi, Dubai, Frankfurt, Munich, Helsinki, or the US, everyone’s gotten used to it.
Now my concern’s the opposite, I’m going to have trouble getting people back to the office is what I’m concerned about and when can we do it. We’re on a voluntary work from home. I will tell you that about 1% of our people have made the voluntary decision to come into the office. So, we have to kind of figure out the next phase of this, which I’m hoping, we can get to here hopefully by September, and we can kind of figure it out. But I’ll tell you, I don’t think New York, Wall Street’s going to be back before the end of the year with that. I’m already talking to lots of the big distribution companies and technology companies and everyone’s talking about 2021. We’re only in July for God’s sake of 2020.
So, people are talking about six months. Again, Amazon and Google and Facebook, they’ve told their employees, “Don’t even think about coming back until 2021.” So, I think that from a productivity standpoint, from a personal standpoint, I’m looking the eye kind of person, I do business, I want to see people. I want to look them in the eyes, and it’s really hard to do that using a lot of the remote technology even as good as these video conference calls are, webcams. We put out $3 to $4 billion a year. I like to have my people visit companies, meet people, kick tires, and it’s hard to do that in this environment.
Yeah. Now, there’s definitely going to be a diminishing return to culture as well on the workplace. I mean, it’s hard to train new younger staff remotely, harder to hire people. Sam Zell, another great Chicagoan said, “It’s impossible to motivate through a modem,” or at least he hasn’t seen it yet. We’ll have a whole new set of management issues coming up in the next six months, I’ve got a feeling of people saying “No, this is working out for me.” Are there any bright spots in the economy, the US economy that leave you with silver linings?
Yeah, I think I think our distribution, our supply chain is getting better and we needed to. I mean, I think that over the years, we were lax in that area from an industry standpoint. A number of industries has gotten reliant on imports, and we didn’t do what we needed to do here from an infrastructure standpoint. So, if you look at the one area that’s become much more efficient and in-demand is industrial distribution. You look at any big city, whether it’s Chicago, Dallas, L.A., the hottest real estate has been industrial real estate. It’s because of distribution. So, that’s getting better, rails are getting better, over the road is getting better. More and more technology is going into that. So, I think those are areas, they’re getting better.
The challenge is those don’t generate big jobs. That’s an efficiency business. That’s not a job business. The big job creators, those are companies that have had challenges, I think, in COVID. The retail markets, the restaurant markets, the leisure market, those are areas that hire and retain and pay your wages. It’s almost underground economies. You don’t see that all time. You asked me what’s the one biggest concern I’ve got, the bright spot is we’ve gotten much more efficient on distribution logistics. The downside is, is I think it’s come at the expense of job creation. We’ve got to fix that somehow, but we’ve got to find an alternative because all those jobs are consumers and all those consumers spend money. Our economy can’t function without those consumers spending money.
Yeah, 70% of our GDP is consumption. So, we’re counting on them to come back to the economy, but until there’s a game plan, which doesn’t seem to be is on our way now, it’s going to be a bumpy road to recovery.
That’s been my biggest gripe, is that we’ve pumped money into industries and the stock market, bond markets, but there really hasn’t been a lot of thought, I think, in my opinion again, about the job side of this. That’s something that for whatever reason, the people in the know, either they don’t have the experience, or they haven’t been involved in Middle America or mainstream America or they don’t really understand it. But until they get that right, we’re not going to fix this thing.
Yeah, the way we look at the CARES Act was it bought people a few months to get their head wrapped around what it means to close down the economy for an entire quarter. But now that we’ve got our heads wrapped around that, now it’s time to get back to work, creating jobs. I think we’ve got a steeper climb than we expect, but I think we’ll get there. So, what are you doing to read right now or educate yourself on what’s going on in the world? Any books that you picked up or plan to pick up over the summer that you’d want to recommend?
Yeah. I tend to not read as much books, I tend to read publications, local publications. I read the European publications, newspapers, cities, Munich, Frankfurt. I like to read what’s going on in Asia. We’re doing more and more in Australia now. Australia’s like Canada, it’s socialized. Basically, it’s socialized worker pension. We manage a fair amount of money. So, what I’m trying to do is understand what is happening in different parts of the world, so that we can dissect that and maybe put best practices to work here. So, I try to do that. Phil Knight wrote a good book, if people want to read what it was like to be an entrepreneur. The Shoe Dog is a pretty good book. I read that only because I told my kids that it’d be a good read form. So, I want to get out ahead of that.
But at the end of the day, I’m really focused on what others are doing that we can adopt, because everyone’s got the same challenges. The Asia has been a much longer-term economic slowdown than we have. I think we’re going to a lot more like Europe going forward than we do like Asia. It’s a very low growth, slow growth, low interest rate environment. It’s caused some challenges. If you look at what’s happening in particularly in Southern Europe with risk taking, there’s a lot of bad loans in that system right now, because people were speculating. I don’t want to see that happen here. But as long as interest rates stay low, we’re almost forcing people to make speculative investment.
Well, Ted, thanks for joining us and stay safe. We’d love to have you back in a few months’ time to see how the credit markets are playing out. We appreciate you joining us today.
Sure thing. Thanks, Ryan. Best of luck to you guys and everything you guys are doing.
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Section 1031 of the Internal Revenue Code during this political season W/ Mitchell Sabshon CEO of Inland Real Estate Investment CorporationRyan Morfin: Mitchell, welcome to the show. Thank you for coming on. Mitchell Sabshon: Ryan, thank you so much for having...
What is a good dude & a good cup of coffee? W/Josh Bridges CEO & Founder of Good Dudes CoffeeShare This Episode Recommended For YouWant to join our show?Would you like to be a guest on the Non-Beta Alpha Podcast? Please...
2020 Elections, Putin, China & Deep State W/ Democratic Super Delegate Lanny DavisShare This Episode Recommended For YouWant to join our show?Would you like to be a guest on the Non-Beta Alpha Podcast? Please click below and let us...
Clearing Week Recap & Insights w/ Brian HamburgerRyan Morfin: Welcome to non-Beta alpha, I'm Ryan Morfin. On today's episode, I'm with Brian Hamburger from Market Council, as we recap clearing week to pull the insights out of the conversations. This is non-Beta...
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