Hanks has seen a decline in opportunities within the Multifamily sector. Despite the lack of available progressive strategies in multifamily, Madison Capital had expected a collection rate decrease of 30%. However, they are only seeing a 5% deficit in collections following COVID-19. Hanks remains optimistic that the infection rates in the southeastern United States’ will remain relatively low and that progressive economic strategies to increase employment will stimulate the sectors that are associated with his business.
Ryan Morfin: Welcome to Non-Beta Alpha. I’m Ryan Morfin, and on today’s episode, we have Ryan Hanks, CEO of Madison Capital Group. Today, he’s going to talk about macro trends affecting self storage and multifamily. This is Non-Beta Alpha.
Ryan Morfin: (singing)
Ryan Morfin: Ryan Hanks, welcome to the show. Thanks for coming on to the show.
Ryan Hanks: Thanks for having me.
Ryan Morfin: So, wanted to pick your brain a little bit. You’re in two very interesting asset classes, self storage and multifamily. Would love to hear your perspective as an owner/operator, of what was happening to self storage. And, maybe the second half of the conversation, we can move to multifamily. What you were seeing, operating these businesses and these properties prior to the coronavirus? And then how coronavirus has changed the demand or the need for some of these property types?
Ryan Hanks: Yeah, absolutely. Storage obviously had been certainly in the midst of some pretty significant tailwinds, I think, heading into COVID. And most MSA’s, I think 2019, you were coming off a little bit of a drag with supply in some markets. So, lease ups were starting to sputter a little bit, rents were kind of bouncing around. But, we kind of felt like we were coming out of that a little bit in 2020 as supply was dwindling for a number of reasons.
Ryan Hanks: So, we were seeing good leasing activity throughout the winter and in the third and fourth quarter of last year. We were still consistently getting very positive rent increases on our existing tenants and still having a positive trend on, new rentals coming in the door. So we we’re seeing good productive activity in most of our markets. I think we’re in nine states in the storage side now spread out throughout the Southeast. So we’ve got a good group of data from primary markets to kind of tertiary markets to look from. So it was robust. We were seeing a lot of activity. You were seeing a lot of people getting into the space on the development side. It had become kind of the new shiny toy, like industrial over the last couple of years as investors were looking for places to put capital.
Ryan Hanks: So it was certainly on the up and up. And I think what’s been really interesting in storage now, having been through a couple of months of the pandemic, if you will, we’ve continued to really good performance. I think honestly, it’s probably a healthy thing in a way for self storage. It’s going to weed out, I think larger sponsors from smaller sponsors. Those that have not invested in the right technology, I think are going to suffer. The nice thing about self storage is even in normal times, it’s a contactless leasing environment. You can rent online, can pay online. You’re given a code to enter the property. If you don’t want to see the manager, you don’t have to. And so we saw a tremendous amount of leasing online during the shutdown. We did not, we did not have one week where I would say we had negative rentals.
Ryan Hanks: And what I mean by that is we had more move outs than we have rental activity. We probably saw even a spike in leasing during the month of April. May seems to already kind of be back to normal times a little bit. But I would say overall, we’ve not seen much of a slowdown. We’ve, like a lot of other [reeds 00:04:09] and larger companies, have decided you really got to be careful on how aggressive you’re going to get on rate increases right now. It’s better to kind of put your borders around the property, keep your occupancies full, just survive, kind of get through the pandemic, get through the summer. You can kind of see that there’s going to be a light at the end of the tunnel with this pandemic. And so we’re staying positive in that regard, but we kind of got very defensive very quickly, not knowing what direction storage was going to go, but I think we’ve been pleasantly surprised by performance.
Ryan Hanks: And I think that in large part that has to do with the… We had invested a significant amount of money about six months ago in what I would call our online platform, brought on our full time call center, used kind of a lease optimization tool, which helps us price units more effectively. So things that have really kind of paid off, I think during the pandemic, just because we launched a new website, made some major upgrades, brought on a firm, go local to really boost our online kind of presence with Google and Facebook ads and things of that nature. So I guess all in all, I think most of the rates reported in the last 24 hours, and I think everyone’s been pleasantly surprised, certainly not all roses.
Ryan Hanks: Yes, it’s a spring season. Things go a little slower than we’d like, but we’re seeing good solid leasing activity. And I think it’s from a couple of different ways. One of our staff members brought up an interesting point. One of our markets where people are cleaning out their stuff in their garages or doing projects, and they’re realizing that they got more stuff than they need in their house and they’re going into storage. So that’s been one interesting news. The college kids have been thrown all over the place and actually this weekend, as I understand it, several boarding schools and colleges and whatnot are actually kids are moving their stuff out. So I expect the next couple of weeks, we’re probably going to see some spikes there. That’s not going to be a longterm trend, but it certainly helps in the short term.
Ryan Hanks: And we’ve been, I think on the forefront of this idea for several years is there is no doubt retail has a problem in a variety of different ways. I’ll just kind of talk in generalities. And I think what you’re going to start seeing, and we’ve already seen it where groups that were on the edge, boutiques and more small businesses that were on the edge with their brick and mortar, do we even need a retail store? I think you’re absolutely going to go see you see them go e-commerce and they still need a place to store stuff. They need to store inventory. We’re actually working with businesses to help them. You tell us where the product needs to go and we’ll ship it for you. So we’re working already directly with Amazon, FedEx and UPS.
Ryan Hanks: We’re actually working with them to set up almost drop-offs and pickups at our facility and just to help that small business owner get things in and out. And I think that really is going to take off in our space because there’s no doubt industrials, I would imagine probably not thrive in this time, but I think what we’ve been spending a lot of time, kind of listening and following what Amazon’s doing and even companies like Walmart. And I think if you listen to them carefully, you’ll hear that over the next six to 12 months, we are going to see what we would have called five years worth of growth in the eCommerce space is going to happen in the next six to 12 months. That to me is a tremendous opportunity.
Ryan Morfin: So self storage may look to become like a micro fulfillment center for a small business.
Ryan Hanks: A hundred percent because not everyone needs obviously big, massive industrial and not everyone could afford flex space. If you’re a boutique owner here in Charlotte, North Carolina, we sell clothes, we sell furniture, we’re a consignment shop. Everyone is shifting online. Everyone’s shifting to Instagram, Facebook, social media, Etsy, Amazon, you name it. And so I absolutely think that we can serve as a mini fulfillment center, kind of that last mile distribution hub for some of these shipping companies and small business owners.
Ryan Morfin: And leading up into the second half of last year, how were cap rates behaving for this asset?
Ryan Hanks: They were getting low. I mean, there’s no doubt. I mean, a storage has become a hot product type as institutional capital has kind of focused on it. For a long time it was a sleepy asset class, what wasn’t part of the four major food groups of office mall, retail, industrial. And I think investors realize, wow, we got low capex. You can raise rents whenever you want. There’s going to be an increase in millennials and baby boomers. They’re looking at the demographics look like they’ll look at anything. And I think that’s what’s kind of fueled some of that. And so I would say cap rates have been decreasing for the last couple years. And even if you look at the last couple of months, there’s still been trades in the self storage space on the institutional side, lenders are still lending.
Ryan Hanks: We’re closing an asset here in Texas in a few weeks where we’re getting very attractive fixed rate debt at 3.2%. So there’s attractive debt out there from life companies for stabilized storage assets. So they’re still deals being done. What cap rates do in the future that’s anyone’s guess. I think there’s going to be a couple asset classes where I think you’re not going to see a massive spike. You’re going to see some opportunities, but there were certainly trending low, heading into the pandemic for sure.
Ryan Morfin: And what would you say about, what is that show, not American pickers, but the one where they have the self storage lockers.
Ryan Hanks: Storage Wars.
Ryan Morfin: Yeah. Storage Wars. Has that show increased the popularity of the asset class? Because I know I watched that show sometimes.
Ryan Morfin: I think a little bit, I mean, we get asked about it quite a bit. Those two are filmed in California and Texas are the two states that are known for legendary auctions. I think most that shows based in Southern California where, you’ve got a lot of wealth and people forget about stuff, but it does happen. We hold auctions every month. One of the things that is appealing obviously about the asset class that maybe some people don’t know about, we probably have the most landlord friendly rules of any commercial real estate asset class that I’m aware of. If you don’t pay, if you’re 15 days late, we lock you out of your unit and put our lock on there. And if you’re 30 days late, we have the ability to throw you out.
Ryan Morfin: Now we try not to. We don’t have a, I would call it vulturistic mindset like some of the other companies, but there does become a time and a place where we have to act and we can’t get a hold of people or they just kind of said, forget it. They don’t want to pay. So most of what we do, and most of what I think other companies do is actually more of an online auction process. But yeah, we do have live auctions from time to time. We’ve had to sell cars and boats. We can go through the legal process and try and contact the owner or any relative. And sometimes you just can’t find people or they just forget it or disappear, or obviously it could be a death, but it is a real thing.
Ryan Morfin: We’ve held more than a fair share, but again, I think it is an interesting part of the asset class to where opposed to multifamily… Forget about what’s going on during COVID, but pre COVID, if you’re in Charlotte, Mecklenburg County here, main county in Charlotte, and I imagine Dallas Atlanta, pick your MSA, it’s pretty similar. I mean, it takes you 60 to 90 days to evict someone. It’s a process and it’s expensive. So let’s think about storage is we take some pictures of the unit posted online and whatever doesn’t get bought, we either donate or if it’s something, no one wants it, it gets thrown away. So it’s simple as that.
Ryan Morfin: Well, given, given the popularity of the show, what’s the weirdest thing you guys have ever come up with, out of one of these auctions that you found and you were, how the heck did they put that in here?
Ryan Hanks: Well, I’ll give you a couple of things. The weirdest thing that we’ve ever sold in my opinion was a Lexus car. I don’t know if you recall that two door coupe that they made kind of had a little bit of a bubble look, very popular car in kind of the mid 2000s, I think, or early 2000s, mint condition, clearly hadn’t been touched for a long time. Was that a property in Florida? I mean, we contacted Tallahassee, went by the letter of the law. Contacted every single person and the DMV, no one could find the owner knowing and we sold it and I think we had over 70 bids at the auction and somebody got a pretty good deal.
Ryan Hanks: I don’t know how somebody forgets about that car or even like a relative or hey, go pick up the car or you got a free car within a family, but that’s what happened. I would say the inside of a unit, it would probably be… We had a guy who set up a couple different, almost like sound studios, music studios and a couple of units. And we noticed something was odd because our utility bills are usually pretty consistent. And the thing had been running pretty high. We’ve been tracking the cameras and we can tell some people are coming and going, but it was basically a guy and a couple of his buddies and they left all this very expensive sound equipment. Something you would see in a mini recording studio. Drum set, keyboards, it was pretty impressive.
Ryan Morfin: Wow. That’s, that’s funny. Did they have to hack into the electrical?
Ryan Hanks: Yeah, yeah. Thousands of dollars worth of stuff, but they had just disappeared.
Ryan Morfin: Wow. That’s, that’s amazing. Well, switching gears a little bit to the other asset type that you guys have, I think 15 multifamily properties. Can you talk a little bit about your view on multifamily in the markets that you were in prior to coronavirus and how things have changed over the last few months?
Ryan Morfin: Yeah, we’ve definitely been a net seller in the multifamily space of the last couple of years. So we don’t have a ton of what I would call stabilized, operating properties. I think a great data point. We’re in the midst of selling one of our properties right now and that closes next week. And we’re probably getting a five, one cap in the midst of this, which I thought was pretty good. They’re getting a loan from Freddie Mac. That was put under contract pre COVID, but we gave him a little bit of price concession. We gave him some more time and it looks like that deal’s getting done. So people still want to transact in multifamily. There’s been a tremendous amount of capital raised around the space, whether it’s for value add… We were a very active acquirer up until 2015 and we really struggled to make sense of acquiring and given where cap rates are.
Ryan Morfin: So we’ve focused mainly on the development space and we’re still very bullish on that. We think costs are going to come down. We think there’s still a very good spread between what we can build and what you can sell for even if cap rates were to jump 50 basis points, which I don’t think they will. We think we’re in a good spot. But the one thing that stuck out to me in the asset class that we deal with, we’re just kind of middle-market class A suburban. So that would be your Frisco Texases, your suburban Charlottes, suburban Atlantas and Nashville, Raleigh, just to name a few. I would say at least the research that we’ve done and looking at some of our own assets, collections have been much higher than what we expected. We call could be fooled and later this month it could be a little worse, but we started to underwrite as expecting that we’re probably going to have about 30% delinquency. And I would say that we’re probably inside a 5%.
Ryan Morfin: And I’ve been part of that. I give credit to our operations team because we really had to educate the tenant early because there was a lot of confusion if you recall coming out where you can’t evict people for 60 days. And then the group start that, well, it’s just free rent for everybody. The landlord’s getting a forbearance, he’s getting concession. Therefore, you shouldn’t have to pay. So we just try to educate people, get out in front of it, say, listen, first of all, no one said you got free rent. So if you don’t want to pay in three or four months, you’re going to owe double. So I think it was just an education process. And I think it scared a lot of people. So I think that was a little bit of a learning curve.
Ryan Morfin: And then, listen, there’s no question that unfortunately the actions taken by companies effected their payrolls or, these furloughs or layoffs, whatever you want to call it. So listen, if you have a problem, we’ll figure it out. We’ll help you out. We’ve given a lot of money to tenants to help them through this time through donations and whatnot. We’ll work on amortizing their lease over a longer period of time. We’re not a public company, obviously we’re a small private company. We’re like a family and we treat our customers that way. And so we don’t want have a vulturistic mentality, I always tell my staff during these times. It’s easy to go there. But I would say we’ve been very surprised by the collections received through what is it, May 9th. We’re looking at it every day.
Ryan Morfin: But I think for us, we’re still bullish on the sector. We think all those markets I just mentioned in kind of the Sun belt, Texas, Carolinas, Georgia, Tennessee, Florida. I think what you’re going to see with COVID is a continued massive flight from larger cities, certainly the Northeast down South where there’s jobs, there’s opportunities, relatively cheap place to live better quality, that was already happening. I think this trend is going to really set a record pace through the rest of the 2020. They all need a place to live. So I think multifamily still bodes well. It’d be interesting to see what kind of cap rates are coming out of this and how people figure out how to transact during this time, because people don’t want to come to our properties and investment committees are all over the place and you’re doing Zoom calls such as this.
Ryan Morfin: So it’ll be interesting to see when that transactional volume starts to pick up again, but just in talking to other colleagues and Fannie and Freddie and other institutions, I think everyone’s been pleasantly surprised by the collections that we’ve seen, at least in the Southeast. I think some other major cities have been a little tougher and then you’re even bound by some local government things that are making it even tougher on the landlord. Just like storage, multifamily was on fire heading into this, every trade was more expensive than the last, so it was a great time to be a seller. I think it’ll just be interesting to see on the other side of this, who’s still left investing. I think a lot of institutional capital is probably on the sidelines to the rest of the year, just my prediction, wait and see approach. See what happens next year.
Ryan Morfin: So it’s going to be a wait and see, I think, or who’s going to be the guy to step in and start buying again. And who’s going to be a seller? I think nice thing on the development side is we relatively have a good basis. So, okay, maybe we’re not going to hit the return here, but we could still hit a really good return and everyone’s happy with that. So I think we’re still in a good spot. We’re still buying land. As I mentioned before, we think costs are going to come down. So we think it actually could be a really good time to break ground on something.
Ryan Morfin: Because you’re not delivering for 12 to 14 months out. Certainly I would think we’re in a strong recovery mode in 2021, 2022. So while people that are reliant on institutional capital, I think are going to be on the sidelines. I’m not kind of comparing to the financial crisis, but we were very successful while people were doing nothing because they were relying on this kind of bucket of capital. We were able to use our own capital, the private capital that we had, that we had been disciplined with, waiting and seeing, I think we’ll be able to transact and take advantage of kind of this unique opportunity.
Ryan Morfin: Well, so it’s interesting. I mean, from an underwriting perspective, through the fog going forward. Unemployment’s going to be much higher. And so you made a comment about 30% delinquency. What is the typical industry breakeven point to cover debt service of in terms of occupancy? When you’re looking at an underwriting, you’ve got to hit this percentage occupancy to break even
Ryan Morfin: For self storage, this is another thing about the asset class. It’s much lower than other asset classes. Because our expense to income ratios are so low. I would say, it again depends on leverage, but probably somewhere in that 60, 65% range. Again, if you’re super levered, then it’s probably in the 70s, but for most moderate lever deals, I would say it’s in that sub 70 range, which is pretty attractive because if you go back and look at the depths of 2009 and you go to Dallas or Atlanta, two big sun belt markets and said, how bad was it? I think a lot of people were, ah, we were in the high seventies, low eighties. That was one of those stats that we were studying the space that we really kind of focused on. I think multifamily, it can really vary, but I would say it’s probably again probably closer to 75, 80%, based on a pretty conservative debt.
Ryan Morfin: So that’s why that certain percent starts to get a little, important on that delinquency number. And I think a lot of in talking to other colleagues, I mean, even the rates, they even were public about it. We’re going to underwrite as if 30 to 50% don’t pay. I’ve not heard any of those levels yet, but that’s why you had Fannie and Freddie come out very quickly with the forbearance program for landlords, for owners to say, well, we’ll forbear for 90 days or longer and we’ll make it up on the back of the loan or you’ve got to repay it at a later date. So definitely been some fear. I’d say more fear in multi than obviously storage, I mean, storage is unique in that most people are on auto pay, it’s relatively low part of their maybe monthly expense. It’s a hundred to 150 bucks a month on average would be my guess for a 5 x 10, 10 x 10 unit.
Ryan Morfin: So yeah, that’s where I think multi has gotten a little bit scary where people have had a hard time underwriting and getting super excited because we don’t know where May’s going to shake out, we don’t know where June’s going to shake out. And I’ve said from day one, this isn’t a 60 day problem. This is a nine month problem. Maybe it’s a 12 month problem. So don’t act like coming out of the summer, things will be all roses. You got to be kind of, I think, prepared to do what you got to do, certainly for the rest of this year and then maybe in the next year. We’ve already seen some positive signs and some industries that are hiring people back.
Ryan Morfin: There’s some that just aren’t going to be that fortunate, but you’re going to have a hard time kind of surviving through this. So it is a little bit of a scarier time, I think, in the multi space. But throughout May and June and July, if we can get some positive trends, then I think that’s when you’ll see the market kind of open up a little bit in the capital market side, but it’s going to take clearly through June for the people who really feel like they got their arms around it and then go from there.
Ryan Morfin: So one question I have for you. So do you think there’s going to be a softening in rental increases or even a reduction as if this delinquency turns into an occupancy problem, people are going to then chase higher quality tenants?
Ryan Hanks: The same thing you saw in 09. And again, I think that’s why, we liked that suburban garden product because what you’re going to see is people trade up and people trade down. And what I mean by that is somebody that maybe couldn’t have afford to live in that new shiny apartment community, he’ll take Orlando, Florida, I’ve got to go into an older 20 year old vintage deal. They’ve given me a better deal, better concession. That everyone’s going to be offering more concessions. I mean, we’re doing it on our lease-up deals because this isn’t a time to be overly proud of my opinion.
Ryan Hanks: It’s a survival mode. It’s time to get people in the door, make them comfortable, just get through the year. And so I think you’re going to see people trade up from B’s to A’s and C’s to B’s and so on. And then I think you’re going to see people go from that higher end, super infill luxury again, into that middle market, suburban. You know what? I could save four hundred bucks a month by driving from Frisco to the Galleria, then I’m going to do that. I’ll take a longer commute, it’s worth it. And I think people do a lot of different things to save three to five hundred bucks a month. And so I think, to answer your question, both are going to happen. You’re going to see increased concessions. You’re not going to see as much rent growth or maybe zero rent growth for the rest of the year.
Ryan Hanks: And if all that doesn’t work, then you’re just going to clearly see people just… We call it a concession, but you’re really just lowering your rent. I mean, it depends on how you structure that concession, but I think it’s already happening. And I think that’s just the way it’s got to be until again, people have a clear picture. When you get more foot traffic, every multi deals kind of been in that shelter in place mode, like other businesses. So we’ve not been able to hold the property tours. It’s all been virtual tours and the properties are now slowly starting to open up. So we’ll be rushing to see how the summer goes, but I think everyone’s anticipating what you just kind of said is that we’re going to need to increase concessions, lower rates if need be. Again, we saw a similar thing in 09 for about a year or less. And like I said, you saw people kind of trading in and out of properties all over the place on the tenant side.
Ryan Morfin: Well, and so I’m curious, so you just sell a property and you said there was a concession. Do you mind sharing a little more, what percentage, was there a price reduction or were there other structural terms that changed? And was it driven by the lender?
Ryan Hanks: Just price reduction. And, we were in a situation where our basis was attractive enough to where we could lower the price and we were still getting a very good return. So asset we’ve owned for about five years. So we’ve seen positive NOI growth year over year. So we were in a good position, but it was really just price reduction. Then I think anything that’s getting closed right now clearly it’s a post COVID pricing, if you will. Even if it’s 5%. Somebody’s got to feel like they’re getting a deal. And so, it just is what it is. I think we decreased our price maybe about 8%, 9%, which was over 10,000 a unit, which seems like a big number, but the reality is we still felt very good in our return. They were willing to go hard with several million dollars of money. They had a loan in place for Freddie Mac ready to go. So we felt like it was a good trade, but yeah, it’s the step it’s that COVID mentality the post COVID mentality. I’m already calling it with buyers. That’s just going to be out there for a while.
Ryan Morfin: Well now hats off to you to not be sentimental about the old pricing regime and just taking a trade because yeah, I mean, 10,000 a key or 10,000 a door that 12 months ago you would have probably, been upset, but I think getting a trade done and still having a great exit return for your investors is a great data point for a good steward of capital. Well, I wanted to ask just one final question. Where do the silver linings in the economy keeps you optimistic about where we’re going, given the pandemic? And then secondly, what books, if any, are you reading right now for either personal or professional interest?
Ryan Hanks: Yeah, so I think to me the first silver lining is what I touched on before. You know, we’re based in Charlotte, North Carolina, we’re an operator in the Southeast and the sun belt. I really think it’s going to be a positive for the Southeast. I think if you take states like where you’re at in Texas and you take the Carolinas, we haven’t seen a tremendous amount of cases. I think, we’ve got progressive economies. We want to get people back to work. We want to create jobs. I think that’s just going to continue to thrive. And you’re just going to see people continue to move to those areas that maybe you saw a little bit of this with 9/11. At least we did it here in the Carolinas where people that were on the fence about going back home, raising their family elsewhere.
Ryan Hanks: What have you, whatever the reason may be, I think a pandemic like this kind of pushes that person over the edge to say, hey, it’s now or never. Let’s just do it. Let’s make the change. We’ll figure it out as we go. Americans are resilient. I think people are thriving for a better quality of life. And so I think that to me is one of the first things that kind of jumped out. I think if you kind of look more nationally, I would hope that we are a little more thoughtful about what gets made, where maybe, in a variety of different industries, it’d be nice to kind of see us a little more reliant on things that are made here in the country, a little bit more made in the USA. That’s more of a personal hope I guess.
Ryan Hanks: And I think there’s a lot of people that have that same sentiment is, hey, let’s get people back to work here, right here in our home turf and be a little more proud of products that are perhaps made here. And so I hope there’s some of that on a national level, it’s obviously a much more global economy than it’s ever been, but we certainly have a lot of able body workers here, a lot of products that we all rely on that are made all over the world. And I would hope that we could see some more, some more growth in that regard.
Ryan Hanks: But I think there’s a couple of things that are going to come out of this where people are going to be a little bit more conscious about where their stuff gets made. I think that’s going to create more jobs. I certainly think the current politics and the positions that they’re in, I think recognize that as well. So hopefully they continue to push that forward or wherever is, gets an office going forward. I really hope they make that a big part of a big part of their kind of goal during their time in administration, where we create some more jobs here in the USA.
Ryan Morfin: Absolutely. I think supply chain’s coming home. And any books of interest that you’ve picked up in the last few months?
Ryan Hanks: I’m a big sports fanatic. I’ve been reading, I would say a lot of sports biographies. I’ve gotten hooked on the podcast and books on tape, like most people, but I’m actually finished up reading basically a biography about Bob Gibson, the famous pitcher. I’m a huge baseball fan. But obviously that’s part of my latest and greatest. It’s just been kind of without what we watch sports. I feel like that’s been, that’s been the most fun. Actually. It was reading a book about the famous Dallas Cowboys and kind of their nineties team, just finished that one up. And so pretty, pretty interesting stories there, but it’s a way to kind of feel like we’re living in the active sports environment when all I have to watch is the Jordan documentary.
Ryan Morfin: Well, it’s interesting. I think a NBA is talking about going to Disney world to go open up a season, get all the teams in different hotels, get them tested to get them into the bubble so they can play in an arena. NFL is probably going to come back on snow fans. I think baseball is going to be harder hit though because they rely on ticket sales for a lot of their business model. I’m hoping for college football.
Ryan Hanks: I don’t know what point you just, if you’re NBA specifically, I love all sports here up in the Philadelphia area. So hockey, basketball, baseball, football, love college sports as well. Some of them, I think you may just have to throw your hands in the air and say, we just got to pick it up next year. Some of it’s getting a little chaotic talking about the hoops they’re going to have to jump through. So I was very positive to hear about the NFL, would love to see some baseball this year. Obviously it’s summer. I love to go to games in the summer, wherever I’m traveling to. So it’s a huge adjustment if you’re a sports guy, for sure.
Ryan Morfin: Well, if you don’t have sports to watch you better clean the garage and get a self storage unit. Ryan, I appreciate you joining us. It was great to hear from you and we hope to invite you back again soon in the coming months to see how this is all playing out, but have a great day. And thank you for joining us.
Ryan Hanks: You bet. Thanks Ryan.
Ryan Morfin: Thanks. Thanks for watching Non Beta Alpha. And before we go, please remember to subscribe and leave us a review on Apple podcast or YouTube channel. This is Non Beta Alpha. Now, you know. (singing)
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