GOLD GOLD GOLD !!! An Inside look at the benefits of gold mining w/ David Tice Principal Moran Tice Capital Management

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Ryan Morfin:

Welcome to Non Beta Alpha. I’m Ryan Morfin. On today’s episode, we have David Tice, one of the founders of Moran Tice Capital Management, talking to us about gold and the gold miners. This is Non Beta Alpha.

Ryan Morfin:

So David, you have historically been a short seller, but today you’re pretty bullish on gold and gold miners. I’d love to talk to you about that transition from going short to long, and what’s driving your renewed interest in gold.

David Tice:

So, I am still a believer in the short side. I think that the market’s dramatically overvalued here, but I tell you, fighting the fed is very, very difficult, and I ran the Prudent Bear Fund between 1996 to 2008, and lost money four straight years, between ’96 to ’99, and did lose some money in 2003 and 2004. It’s tough to make money when we have such an accommodated Federal Reserve and accommodate fiscal policy like we have now.

David Tice:

Inside Prudent Bear, I actually included gold stocks for about six of those eight years, towards the end of 2008. It actually saved my rates of return, really optimized the portfolio when you have such an aggressive Federal Reserve, and you have a period where gold’s going up and gold stocks are going up, it makes all the sense in the world, and frankly, I prefer being long gold stocks today than I prefer being short stocks.

Ryan Morfin:

The physical delivery of gold, some investors actually put bullion or buy bullion. They buy those coins. They look for other ways to hold gold. But your approach, you’re looking at actually investing in the producers of gold. Maybe you could talk a little bit about what’s happening in both of those markets.

David Tice:

Let’s go through that slowly. I’m still a believer in bouillon. I believe in gold and silver, and I think that frankly, gold is money. Frankly, silver is incredibly better valued relative to gold over thousands of years of history. However, when you’re looking at precious metals equity, we call them PMEs. These are mining companies that explore, develop and produce gold and silver. These companies are selling at dramatically low prices relative to bouillon. Frankly, there is an operating leverage component to owning these mining companies. So, if gold goes up, we think this is likely 10 or 15% a year over the next five years. If that happens, then the precious metals equities are likely to go up 30% compound per year. That’s because of the operating leverage that you have.

David Tice:

Recently we were at about $1,500 for the price of gold. It’s gone to $1,900. That’s up 400 bucks. In percentage terms, that’s 400 over 1500, so that’s about 23% or so. But, you look at what the margin has done, the margin, if your operating cost is $1,300, then you went from $200 profit margin at $1,500. $1,900 minus $1,300, $600 in profit margin, so you tripled it. Therefore that’s why these mining companies go up so far and so fast. That’s why there’s simply a different way to play it. I would not argue for your RIA audience to not hold bullion, I just feel like it’s another arrow in your quiver.

Ryan Morfin:

Before we go on to the PMEs, which is really the focus of what you guys are investing in in this new vehicle, what is the best way for somebody who doesn’t know a ton about buying bullion, how do you get into that? And what’s the best way to do it? And what do you have to be careful of?

David Tice:

Really, you just need to buy from an ethical, reliable dealer. You can do it from either owning bars or coins. There are some great companies out there that have been around for a long time. VanEck is one. I don’t have some of these names committed to memory tonight, and I’m not really affiliated with any of them, but there are some great suppliers where you can buy either bullion or coins. You can also buy in more of a paper vehicle, Sprott. I’m a big fan of Eric Sprott. They have some ETF trusts, where you are actually owning physical silver or gold in trust, and you can be absolutely sure that it’s dollar for dollar, your investment is owning that percentage amount of physical gold and silver. I really like those vehicles. You can actually have the gold or silver shipped to you with 24 hour notice. If you decide to go to the Cayman’s and you actually want to own the silver bullion or gold bullion, you can have it shipped to you. So, I really like those products. VanEck and Axel Merckx. Axel Merckx is another friend of mine. They have a product which is also a gold trust that does a really fine job.

Ryan Morfin:

Got it. So, as we go back to the precious metal equities, when you guys are looking through your different investment screens, what are you looking for in that segment? What stands out to you? Besides the fact that there’s additional margin on the table because of spot prices?

David Tice:

There is several different categories in the PME space. There are senior mining companies, which are the bigger companies that are producing more than a million ounces a year. There are junior producers, which are companies that are producing gold and silver right now. And then there are also developers, which means these companies that have a resource that’s been defined, where there is what’s called a 43101 resource that has been accredited by a third party engineering firm, oftentimes backed up by a 300-400 page report where they’ve determined a net present value of the future cash flow from this resource, and they measure what the valuation of that net present value is, and then compare that to the market cap of the company. And then you look at what kind of price they’re going for.

David Tice:

Those companies require a little bit more processing, and that you have to do permitting, you have to building a mine, you might have to drill out a couple more holes, but you essentially have a resource that’s in place. And then there are explorers.

David Tice:

In our RIA, where we do individual managed accounts and we also have a fund, we invest about two thirds in mining companies that are producers, but that are juniors. These are producers that are not producing half a million ounces a year, these are smaller companies, and the values are much more attractive in those smaller players.

Ryan Morfin:

Got it. Do you think there’s some M&A coming or forthcoming. Are the seniors going to have to buy growth? Is that part of the play?

David Tice:

Yeah. That’s a great point, Ryan. Because it’s very similar to the oil and gas industry, where the more entrepreneurial companies are the smaller companies that hand out more stock options, they’re more aggressive. The senior companies tend to be companies that are producing right now. Their mines might be in decline, therefore they don’t have as much exploration and development going on, and therefore they still have shareholders that are aggressively asking for growth. Therefore, these companies are looking around and it’s like, “How can we get some growth?” Most often, the way they get it is they go to a more entrepreneurial company that has a development project or has a producer that’s selling at a cheaper price, and they can go out and buy that, and it’s immediately equated to EPS. Therefore, the bigger companies are, 90% of them, in having production be flat or in decline.

David Tice:

Therefore, in order to keep their shareholders happy, they need to go out and buy. Therefore, these junior companies end up being targets.

Ryan Morfin:

How have these junior producers, and how has this segment of the industry, how has it performed over time, during different volatile periods, like say going back to the great depression, or in the ’70s? What has been the historical context of performance in the sector?

David Tice:

Okay, so really the junior mining companies perform like the seniors and like the whole PME sector, however with more volatility. So, you look at just the way it is with NASDAQ stocks relative to S&P stocks. I mean, there is more volatility in those companies. But, there have been great booms in the PME sector. If you look at the 1930s, the 1970s and the 2000s. Those were great periods where rates of return were 500% to 1,200%. We believe that this period right now in the 2020s, going forward to perhaps 2025 2028, is going to be a similar period to the 30s, the 70s and the 2000s. Therefore it’s likely to be 500% to 1,000%.

David Tice:

You look at what the Federal Reserve is doing right now, you look at the lack of fiscal discipline, even with the Republican and the Democratic party, we can see … we’ve seen this movie before, when there’s no fiscal and monetary discipline, gold does very, very well. And then when bullion does well, the precious metals equities do even better.

David Tice:

Now, the great set up for this Ryan, is from 2011 to 2016, there was a significant decline in precious metals equities. The price of gold went down from nearly $2,000 to $1,200 or so. Mining companies were down for about five years. These companies got decimated. It wiped out investment banking. It wiped out the gold hedge funds. It wiped out the mining company mutual funds, etc. It destroyed especially some of these junior companies where they are selling at fractions of where they were back in 2011. Some of these companies still have great assets, and now that the price of gold has gone up, then a number of these projects are now profitable and in fact, if you look at our particular portfolio, you look at the consensus earnings estimates for 2021, our portfolio of producers is selling at 7.8 times those 2021 earnings. That’s really unbelievable, and we’ve hardly ever seen that in past cycles, that you actually have mining companies selling for single digit PE multiples of gap earnings.

Ryan Morfin:

Well, that does sound pretty attractive entry point relative to say, I don’t know, the tech sector, which is trading at insane multiples today. In these periods where we’ve seen gold at $2,000 and then come back down, now we’re back up to these high water marks, what about modern monetary theory, MMT they call it, how is that distorting or pivoting the market for future growth past these high water mark levels?

David Tice:

You mentioned MMT, and you and I had a discussion yesterday, and we’re both very opposed to it. It’s kind of like there’s people thinking there’s a free lunch. There’s no such thing as a free lunch. You can’t necessarily just give money to people and just print money. Essentially that’s, if you look back over history, monetary history, and you look at past civilizations over thousands of years, we’ve seen this movie before. What’s happened is, leaders of these civilizations, they always want to provide a growing standard of living for their constituents. That could be in the days of the Greeks, and the days of the Romans, and the days of the Confederacy for the United States. So, this has always happened. What happens is, these political leaders will resort to some kind of policies to be able to provide a free lunch to their constituents. Because they want to stay in office. They want to remain with their perks, etc.

David Tice:

That’s what’s happened. Essentially over thousands of years, what oftentimes happens, is currencies end up being debased. You go to museums around the world, you can find currencies from the Romans, from the Greeks, etc. It used to be that they would have a certain component of precious metals to their metal currencies, but then what happens when standard of living starts to go down and too much debt is taken on, then these leaders end up debasing the currencies and they take out some precious metals out of those coinage. That’s been done dozens of times. Modern monetary theory is somewhat akin to what we’ve seen with quantitative easing. We’ve seen QE three, QE four. We’ve seen the Fed increase the size of its balance sheet from $1 trillion to coming up on $7 trillion, so essentially these are all moves, but what MMT is, is saying that we don’t need any discipline at all. Just send some money out. Send some transfer payments out to individuals to let people sit on their couch. We don’t even have to borrow, we’re just going to print it.

David Tice:

Well, that’s going to end very, very badly and it will end in a significant decline in the US dollar. It will end in a dramatic increase in the price of gold.

Ryan Morfin:

I guess the, it used to be a million dollar question, and then it turned into a billion dollar question, and in today’s world, it’s the multi trillion dollar question. How much runway do you think the Fed has, as they keep pumping trillions into the economy? When does solvency get called into question, and the dollar starts to just break apart?

David Tice:

There’s a strong difference of opinion among really smart guys. I mean Ray Dahlia, who is known to be probably the most famous current investment manager and one of the richest. He’s written a series of articles and has written a couple of books. You can listen to him on YouTube. He is saying that the dollar’s role as global reserve currency is going to end. There are foreign adversaries that are ticked off at our utilization, our lack of discipline utilizing the dollar as the world’s reserve currency.

David Tice:

Now, we still have taxing authority, which allows people to have some confidence in the dollar. We still have aircraft carriers. We still have the biggest military, etc. And a lot of this is very, very complicated and there’s very, very smart people, but there’s a lot of dollar bears. I happen to be a dollar bear. I don’t think it necessarily has to happen in the next 18 months, because of those other factors that I mentioned. There’s this expression people use, saying that we’re the least dirty shirt in the clothes hamper. We look pretty good relative to the Euro and the Yen and the Renminbi. Therefore, I don’t necessarily think the dollar is going to crash, but the dollar has not acted that well this year, and if you look over thousands of years of history, global reserve currencies do not last forever. They end up lasting … the dollar is relatively long too. But the dollar doesn’t have to end. The dollar could still be the second least dirty shirt in the hamper, but it’s not going to be as strong as gold. Gold is money. Therefore, gold is going to do well. We think in any kind of currency system, gold and silver will play a stronger role.

Ryan Morfin:

And it goes to question then, if the dollar is going to become a second place reserve currency, then is it going to be the Chinese currency? Is it going to be digital currencies like Bitcoin, some of those new digital assets? Or is it going to be back to good old gold and hard metals?

David Tice:

There’s a lot of discussion about will there be a gold standard again. I think there won’t necessarily be a new gold standard. I mean, there’s been a lot of discussion that there should be a monetary reset, that there should be a new Brighton Woods, there should be a new Plaza accord. What’s interesting is now we’re having gold backed monetary systems being discussed by China and various other countries. I think there is going to be some kind of gold backing, and I think there will be some kind of digital currency. Ronald Powell, who is the CEO and co-founder of Real Vision TV, he has talked a lot just even recently, he was a relatively late newcomer to getting on the cryptocurrency bandwagon, but he believes all the recent attention to national systems of digital currency being backed by gold could lead to a more embracing of Bitcoin. Therefore, inside our fund, we’re actually a believer that we should have some representation in your portfolio of Bitcoin.

Ryan Morfin:

And is it Bitcoin? Or some of these other coins? What about Bitcoin is better than other coins?

David Tice:

I can’t say I’m a Ph.D. student in the Bitcoin land. And certainly there are … Bitcoin is by far the most established. There are reasons that Bitcoin could be the longer term play. Certainly [inaudible 00:22:56] has some great advantage functionally over Bitcoin, but I think just the play of Bitcoin makes a lot of sense. I don’t think you could go wrong with that one. You might be able to make a little bit more money if you picked the right cryptocurrency over Bitcoin, and that might be a place for a part of your portfolio.

Ryan Morfin:

At what point should Americans get worried that US Treasuries perhaps are going to not be the, what we’ll call the reserve standard, and gold is starting to outweigh? Are you seeing that trend in other central banks? Are they starting to accumulate, and are they honest and transparent about how much they’re accumulating and holding?

David Tice:

Well, the Chinese have not been very transparent about their ownership of gold. They typically don’t even release, but every three or four years, how much gold they own. We know that there’s been a lot of misrepresentation about economic indicators throughout China, and I do believe that China owns a lot more gold. Now, if you look at central banks have bought a lot more gold over the last five to ten years, and they’re holding of US Treasuries has been diminished. Frankly, when the 30 year yields 1.7%, and the 10 year is yielding about 75 basis points, you look at the 40/60 traditional portfolio holdings of institutions and you’re picking up that kind of yield from your treasury bonds? I mean, frankly we think it’s a flawed asset class. We think that one thing about holding gold, gold has typically done well in periods of zero interest rates or negative interest rates.

David Tice:

So, if you can hold a bond and earn 5%, then you might want to hold that bond rather than holding gold that doesn’t yield anything at all. But, if you’re in a money market fund that’s yielding practically nothing, why shouldn’t you own some gold? Frankly, if you as an individual has a bunch of cash and you’re earing 15 basis points in your money market fund, why not own some gold that you know is going to have some value that’s probably going to increase, and it’s not costing you much by not being in that cash interest earning vehicle?

Ryan Morfin:

Yeah, I think anybody who watches this show, I’m sure agrees that the 60/40 model is definitely dead in a low interest rate environment. What happens though to gold if interest rates go negative in the US and if they go negative globally?

David Tice:

I think gold does even better, because then if you have the decision that you have $100,000 in your bank account and you earn negative 1%, you’re going to get $99,000. And then you can hold the gold and you know you’re going to own a certain number of ounces of gold. Why wouldn’t that make you even more convinced to own gold that yields nothing versus this negative interest earning vehicle?

Ryan Morfin:

And from some of the smarter, we’ll call, investment managers out there, asset allocators, what is the current, I’ll call it, sophisticated market approach in terms of asset allocation for gold right now, and where do you think it goes over time? Is it 1%? Is it 10%? Is it 30%? What’s the right percentage of a portfolio?

David Tice:

Okay. Each individual needs to make that decision. There’s been a … The finance books, a lot of time, I’ve talked about 5% to 10%. Jeff Gundlach, who manages more bond money than anybody, was on recently in an interview, was talking about how he is not repulsed by 25% holdings of gold. And it depends on when you look at bonds, and the fact that 40% of portfolios have been in bonds where Jim Grant calls those return free risk. Why not be more than 10% in gold?

David Tice:

Frankly, when you look at the cash that you own, and the fact that if you need to get your cash out of the bank, and that there could be a financial crisis and the bank might not even let you have that cash, and the fact that in March, when I ended up going to my bank and the market was crashing, they were telling me to come back next Thursday and, “No, you can’t have any more than $20,000.”

David Tice:

Remember that a checking account at your bank is truly a liability of the bank, is what you own when you own a checking account. I think people need to look at gold a little bit differently. But I tell you, if you’re even a 10% owner of gold, you’re going to be a lot better off than most other people that have zero. If you look at holdings of gold and gold stocks for a traditional US investors today, it’s about .3% of their holdings. The three decade average has been 1.5%, so that’s up about six fold or so.

David Tice:

During booms and typically we will eventually get to a mania, that level could get to 5%. However, the really smart people are likely to have a lot more if they are forward thinking, etc. So, that’s just something that you have to analyze monetary history, do your homework, listen to shows like this, and make up your own mind.

Ryan Morfin:

Well, that’s interesting. That’s the US numbers you’re talking about. What different parts of the world attract more gold? China? India? Switzerland? Who is hoarding all the gold today after we left the gold standard?

David Tice:

Well, the Chinese have gone to their public, I’d say five to eight years ago, and actually did promote billboards telling their consumers to go out and buy gold. We know the Indians have always bought gold. We know the Russians have bought a lot of gold. Asians have generally bought gold and silver. Our central bank in the US does have a high percentage of gold in Fort Knox, if we can believe that those numbers are still there, even though we have not audited our gold reserves for more than 50 years. There’s been a lot of pressure from certain members of Congress to audit our reserves, and that’s never taken place.

Ryan Morfin:

What could possibly be the excuse not to give that kind of transparency?

David Tice:

Beats me. I mean, does government make sense some times? I mean, it’s like Rand Paul, who ran for president, has talked about this for a long time.

Ryan Morfin:

That seems like that’s a no brainer. Hopefully we’ll be pleasantly surprised and not the other way around. I wanted to also ask you, you have a passion project as well, where you talk a little bit about the vulnerabilities of the US electrical grid infrastructure. Do you mind sharing some of your thoughts on what that project is about and why you’re doing it?

David Tice:

No. I’d be glad to. Thanks for asking. This is a project trying to alert the American people about the vulnerability of our power grid. We have a website and a documentary that’s coming in early 2021. The name of the documentary is Grid Down, No Second Chance. Our website is GridDownDoc.com. We believe that there is, if we all believe that our nation’s leaders were very unprepared for COVID-19, however if the power grid potentially went down for three months to nine months to potentially a year and a half, can you imagine the suffering and death that we might experience? Because during COVID-19, we ended up having our Uber Eats and our Amazon, and we had trucks getting to the grocery store, etc. But, if the grid happened to go down on a nationwide basis, it would create hardship and death and destitution like we’ve never seen.

David Tice:

It sounds like a science fiction movie, but frankly, there have been Congressional studies and science and a number of scientific studies have said that between 75% and 90% of Americans could die in a grid down scenario. Now, the reason I started this project, or I actually picked it up from another patriotic lady that had started the film is, this is very fixable. Frankly, there are solutions to be able to harden the power grid, and there have been bills passed by Congress, that Donald Trump is behind, trying to protect our power grid. However, frankly it’s been held up by bureaucracy and by deep state and by public utility lobbyists, etc. frankly, there needs to be more of a movement, almost like a contract with America that Newt Gingrich started 40 years ago, or a Tea Party movement.

David Tice:

Frankly, we have the ability to have eight letters written to your US Congressmen and your two US Senators, your two State Legislators, your FEMA emergency director, chairman of your state utility commission, and your General for your National Guard, to say, “Let’s get behind this. Let’s fix this. There’s no reason that we can’t get this done.” The whole project could be completed for about $100 billion frankly. So, when we’re throwing around trillions of dollars, and the risk frankly is higher than one might think, because there’s a couple of different risks. One, it could come from an adversary, such as the Chinese or North Korean, Iranian, or a Russian. It could also come from a geomagnetic storm.

David Tice:

We have seen, and NASA has talked about this, that there is a probability of 12% per decade, of there being a dramatic geomagnetic storm, very similar to what happened in 1860, for what was called the Carrington Event. It could fry the electronics in our transformers and essentially knock out our power grid for as long as over a year. So, if you go to the internet, if you go to our website, you can read about this. I’d love people to kind of get behind it and inform people. We can fix this.

Ryan Morfin:

That was the solar storm, right? That hit in the 1860s? Yeah, and the electromagnetic pulse is basically a nuclear bomb being detonated in the atmosphere and shocking the ground right? And all the electronics on it?

David Tice:

Exactly. And in fact, we know that is in the playbook of our adversaries. And in fact, some of our adversary top leaders have mentioned that in various threats and various articles in the past. Iran has talked about that, and therefore yes, people say, “Well, the chances are small, this will never happen,” but you’re only talking about some crazy people inside a room of the PLA, or inside the Iranian National Guard, and they decide that they can pull this off, and it can create unbelievable pain and suffering for us, and it is so defensible, frankly.

David Tice:

If we would have had enough PPE and masks at the beginning of this outbreak, think how much better off we would have been. We know we can’t count on government to provide the defense mechanisms. It really requires the American people to demand better government.

Ryan Morfin:

Well, in a year where the murder hornets have invaded, we should be thinking about the two or three sigma events that could happen, because it is definitely an unusual period for us. This is the second season of our show, and we do, at the end of every episode, we ask six questions. They’re all yes or no. Whatever your gut reaction is to the question, more as a survey if you will, for our guests. I’m going to just ask you the first question and then we’ll go from there. If you want to add any context, feel free.

Ryan Morfin:

If there was a COVID vaccine available today, would you take it?

David Tice:

No. And I’d like to add one side bar. There is actually a product out there that is a natural homeopathic product that has gone through FDA trials that I’m going to take, and it’s called … You can go to the website MyOleander.com. There has been a couple segments on EconomicWarRoom.com, and a fellow Patriot, Kevin Freeman is a good friend of mine. I believe that this particular product … This product has actually been shown to Donald Trump, they are fighting for FDA approval. Ben Carson, the esteemed brain surgeon, is a backer of this. It’s still under the radar screen, but I’m going to take that rather than taking a vaccine.

Ryan Morfin:

Who wins the election on November 3rd?

David Tice:

[inaudible 00:39:22].

Ryan Morfin:

Fantastic. What type of economic recovery are we in, if at all? What’s the shape of it?

David Tice:

I think this is more of a W, if you look at the fact that we were down dramatically in Q1 and Q2. Q3 is likely to be up 30%, but I think we’re seeing flattening of the recovery, and frankly we ended up having so much stimulus in April. I’m also a big fan of David Rosenberg, who just started his own firm. $6.6 trillion sitting on the couch money came into the system, which essentially doubled the negative outcome from the loss of wages and salaries and income. About half of that money has been spent, and about half of it has been saved. But, unless we see more reinforcement of that, and that is probably coming soon.

David Tice:

But again, it is not creating productivity. You look at the New Deal, you look at the money that we spent under Roosevelt for the New Deal. We ended up building bridges and highways, which created productivity, which would stimulate the economy later. In this case, we have just provided sit on the couch money, where people can pay for their Netflix bill and pay for their electric bill. It’s not really creating new productivity enhancing stimulus. Therefore, we think there’s going to be significant declines ahead.

Ryan Morfin:

Yeah. There’s never been an infrastructure bill passed unfortunately. That’s definitely needed today. That is an interesting way to put it, the sit on your couch money. The next question is, is there anything that you achieved this summer that you’re particularly proud of while we’ve been in lockdown?

David Tice:

I’d say spending more time with my 97 year old mom. I’d say that.

Ryan Morfin:

That’s fantastic. Are there any silver linings that you see in the economy for 2021 in the US?

David Tice:

Yes. I think that the fact that we have determined that people don’t need to live in the cities, and people can work from Lake Tahoe and people can work from Connecticut and come into New York City once a week, is going to be overall beneficial with great internet and with great Zoom conferencing, etc. People can be productive and spend more time with their families. Real estate values will be more dispersed, and frankly, if there is a hugely negative cataclysmically scenario like an EMP or a cyber attack, being more geographically dispersed is to our benefit.

Ryan Morfin:

And the last question is, is there anything that you’re reading, watching or listening to that is just helping to shape your thinking going forward?

David Tice:

I’d say YouTube provides great content, and your show and what you’ve done. I’ve gone through your 100 episodes as far as you’re talking to really smart people, and having a host like you that’s plugged into this way of thinking. People can magnify their consumption of information by listening to smart hosts that are picking the smartest people out there and then having great questions to ask. I’d say there is so much value there. We’re all blessed to be in this environment today where if you want to learn something, Ronald Powell just had an hour and a half segment on how to be a macro investor, as an example. There’s all kind of ways you can get smarter.

Ryan Morfin:

Fantastic. Well David, I appreciate you coming on the show. I learned a lot and definitely very intrigued about some of this new asset class breaking that 60/40 model. It’s not really a new asset class is it? It’s probably one of the oldest we’ve had. It’s just coming back into vogue. So, thank you so much, and we hope to have you back on the show in the future.

David Tice:

Yeah. It was a pleasure to be with you, and good luck to all your audience out there. They’ve got a big job as an RIA to try to navigate these waters for their investors. So, best of luck to all of them.

Ryan Morfin:

Thank you so much. Have a great day.

Ryan Morfin:

Thanks for watching Non Beta Alpha, and before we go, please remember to like and subscribe on Apple Podcasts and our YouTube channel. This is Non Beta Alpha, and now you know.

 

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