Developing multifamily in today’s environment w/ Scott Lawlor CEO of Waypoint Real Estate Investments

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Ryan Morfin:

Welcome to Non-Beta Alpha. I’m Ryan Morfin. Today’s episode, we have Scott Lawlor, CEO of Waypoint Real Estate Investments, talking to us about the benefits of developing multifamily in today’s environment. This is Non-Beta Alpha.

Ryan Morfin:

Scott, welcome to the show. Thank you for joining us. We appreciate you being on.

Scott Lawlor:

Thanks for having me.

Ryan Morfin:

So you’re at Waypoint Development and you guys are developing multifamily, and it’s an interesting time. Multifamily has been doing very well prior to the pandemic. And today, it’s one of the few asset classes that still has access to permanent financing, whether CMBS Market or HUD, or what have you. Would love to hear a little bit about your thoughts about where the multifamily market was, development sub sector was for that asset class prior to COVID? And how has it changed over the last few months?

Scott Lawlor:

So it sounds like we’re talking about development specifically now. So a couple of things. First, I think there’s a lot of misunderstanding in the market prior to COVID about where the apartment sector was with respect to new development. In particular, the new supply threat. We play primarily in the Sun Belt and really the most meaningful risk in the Sun Belt apartment sector, is new supply threat. Because it’s a part of the country where it’s relatively easy to build, and it’s a product that’s relatively easy to build.

Scott Lawlor:

So there started to be a lot of chatter the last few years about, “Is the party over? This city’s seeing a lot of new supply. That city’s seeing a lot of new supply.” And it was terribly, terribly misunderstood. Because people were latching on to a few headline bullet points. But the truth is, the new supply threat really … You have to drill down and segment your market by geography and by price point as well. And there were certain at metros that were heavily experiencing maybe a wave all at once, so those developers were given away a few months free.

Scott Lawlor:

Then from a price point perspective, because we’re developing or we’ve have developed a serious affordability issue in the US rental housing sector. And the vast, vast majority of new supply was at the top dollar price point. And develop were caught in the arms race, and developers and their institutional partners shooting to deliver the coolest, most tricked out product and get top dollar rents.

Scott Lawlor:

So my point is, so long as you can identify where the new supply threat is, you can navigate around it. And so I don’t think it was a threat everyone thought. And in particular, you also have to step back and at least understand it from a macro perspective. And if you think about, how much stock do we need just to accommodate growth in this country? You have to apply some factor for obsolescence and conversion. These are not securities. It’s a built environment, it doesn’t last forever. The fact is we weren’t building enough.

Scott Lawlor:

I won’t go on and on about it, but my world broadly, or across the country, about a 20 million unit world. If you want to say we grow at 1% a year, it’s a little high lately, but it’s not a bad, long term number. That’s 200,000 units just to keep up with growth. And if you want to say even 1% a year is lost to obsolescence and conversion, which is probably conservative. Because this stuff doesn’t last a hundred years, but let’s say it did. That’s 400,000 units a year to tread water. And we were building three, three and a quarter, maybe. And so the point is new supply from a macro perspective simply was not an issue. And so the reason that’s all… Sorry, long winded answer to your question is, those were the conditions heading into COVID.

Scott Lawlor:

We had very, very solid fundamentals, rent, rental growth, occupancy, and so on, modest new… manageable new supply. And of course we weren’t levered anything like we were last time, industry-wide nor at Waypoint. And so if you sail into a cycle, with modest new supply, with modest leverage in a sector that has solid fundamentals, and that is historically resilient and a much lower beta sector versus the others… Not to say COVID has been a positive in any way, but it certainly hasn’t caused the apartment sector to turn upside down at all. And particularly not in our geography. So sorry, long winded answer. But as you can tell, we live and breathe this. So it’s on our mind a lot.

Ryan Morfin:

Yeah. If you look at the consumers too, I guess the question would be, the health of a U S consumer, household income has taken a hit with the unemployment going up above 11%. How are you looking at the renter outlook? It seems like a lot of people are getting collections still, but do you see stress in the horizon?

Scott Lawlor:

Well, look, I’m not one to forecast politics. I don’t know that it’s doable, but if you asked me to guess, a few months out from an election, are Republicans going to vote to pull the rug out from under… We call it the $600 question because it’s been on everyone’s mind. And I know it’s very, very topical as even the minute. I don’t think they are. Are Democrats going to vote against extending benefits to people out of debt? I don’t think they are. So it would seem to me there’s a very, very high likelihood in some shape or form benefits are going to get extended. Clearly that’s a big part of why collections, frankly, are artificially high. Collections have been juiced. The consumer is on drugs a little bit, right now. Excuse the terminology. But the fact is that the trade we’re observing is the administration, Congress and the Fed doing what they can, finding every bullet in their gun to get us through the roughest part of the rough patch until the labor market heels and consumer stands on its own two feet.

Scott Lawlor:

It’s not there today, obviously, but I don’t think they’re going to pull the rug out from under. It’s been working so far. If you asked any guy in the apartment sector in March, would he forecast 96 cents on the dollar collections through 2Q, they’re lying if they say, “Yes.” We’re all very pleasantly surprised. And obviously the benefits are a big part of it. But the other part of it is obviously the impact is not the same across income levels, across price point of rent, across geography. And we’re playing in areas that have held up pretty well. So my guess is, the government’s going to keep doing what it’s doing in some shape or form. Really, because there’s not much other of a choice.

Ryan Morfin:

Yeah. No, I think the consumer is definitely being buoyed up and I think the political season’s upon us. So there’s no way they’re not going to give a stimulus package. I concur with you. One question is, so you’re focused on Sun Belt, talk to me maybe about some of the markets that you think are the strongest in the country and can those Sun Belt markets withstand the type of recession that we’re in? Will they play through or do you think this is going to be one of those macro wide events where all markets just have a level effect on?

Scott Lawlor:

No, I think we’ll play through okay. We’ll certainly see a hiccup and already have in market rental growth. We’ve not seen a hiccup in face rates. We’ve not seen a hiccup in occupancy. We’re still signing the same number of leases. What we’re not doing is bumping rates. So that’s not a win if you’d rather take a $1000 guy and roll them at a 1,030 or 40. But right now our view is with much chaos, let’s keep heads on beds. So we’re rolling our $1000 guy at a thousand and that’s been the case for a few months, might very well be for a few more. In the scheme of things, if you’re going to put 40 million people out of a job and all you’re doing is not getting your bumps, not such a bad trade.

Scott Lawlor:

But look, our bet has never, ever been cyclical. Our bet is longterm. We’re betting on trends that drive apartment demand around the country and in particular, in our geography. And so for instance, if you look at… We would broadly put 14 metros, basically the obvious 14 biggest metros from Florida to Arizona. They’ve grown by about 50%, this millennium. So about 36 or so million people to 54 or so million people. 50% growth in 20 years is serious stuff when you’re talking about big cities, not tiny little towns. That’s a trend that started way before 2000 and I think is going to continue way beyond 2020. If you look at the same… If you take the 14 biggest Metro’s Northeast Midwest, and the same 20 years, they’ve gone from about 65 million people to 75 million people, which is to say less than 10% aggregate growth in 20 years. The United States is growing in the Sun Belt.

Scott Lawlor:

It’s just what it is. Now, of course, we’re not so smart. A lot of other folks have figured it out and that’s where the developers are and all that stuff. So we have to contend with new supply. But as I said, we can navigate around that. But the trends that we’re betting on, whether it’s the growth we’re trying to capture, and all sorts of other cultural trends, as it relates to renting versus owning, age people are getting married, age they’re having kids and all this stuff, all of that represents structural tailwind that’s driving our business and I think well through COVID and then whatever comes after and whatever comes after that.

Ryan Morfin:

Why do you think younger people are not owning houses and continuing to rent longer? What do you think psychologically about our culture is changing?

Scott Lawlor:

Well, look, I think we had a historic event that we talked about a little bit earlier. 13 year… Really started in 2007 and then bottomed out in ’08. But the United States experienced 70 consecutive years of positive home price value, I think, right through ’07. Positive appreciation, 70 years in a row. And then we saw values collapse, whatever it was, 30 or so percent. So you have a generation of younger Americans that watched their parents get wiped out. So, it was a fundamental truth in American life. In multiple generations, you buy a house as soon as you can. And owning a home is a very, very important, life goal. And I think we have a generation now that just doesn’t see the world that way. They’re happy to rent.

Scott Lawlor:

That’s not everyone. It’s not to say 70% home ownership went to 50. It only went to about 63. Maybe it’s banging around 64 or so right now. But that’s a tremendous amount of demand at the margin. And I don’t [inaudible 00:10:44] balling anything, but I have not… I am a believer in getting my hands on every bit of data that’s out there, every forecast. And I’ve not seen anything to suggest that home ownership is bouncing back up. I think that was a structural change that occurred 12, 13 years ago, and that’s with us for a very long time. And it’s a psychological shift, I think, very clearly as a result of what happened.

Ryan Morfin:

Yeah. I do think you brought up some good points about folks saying, “You know what? I don’t want to buy because I saw, a decade ago, the volatility that could exist on a bubble.” Do you see that maybe single family, residential rentals are competitive and growing, competitive set against apartment buildings?

Scott Lawlor:

Yeah. We’re a very big fan of that strategy. And we’ve been looking at deals and we’ve got a couple lined up. And we think it’s an interesting angle because it’s one thing to say that the kids who were in middle school and high school when the crash hit, and now late twenties, early thirties, they saw their parents get crushed or not necessarily so excited that they don’t get why it should be the American dream per se. But that’s a conversation about own versus rent. The separate issue is having a backyard, living in a suburban environment and all this stuff. And as millennials get older and get married and have kids, I think it’s perfectly reasonable to assume, at least some of them, not all, but some of them are going to want the lifestyle, but it doesn’t mean they want the economic trade.

Scott Lawlor:

So the way you accommodate both those needs is you built single family [inaudible 00:12:22]. And it’s really not much of a speculative thesis because approximately half of the rental households in United States are rentals of single family homes. So there’s, 40 million give or take rental households in the U.S. Half are renting single family homes already. It’s just that before the last crash and the birth of some of the big companies that came out of the crash, we bought large pools and all that stuff. It was almost always historically an odds and ends mom and pop business. Someone buys a fixer upper and rents it out and does it as an investment. It’s become a bit of a business now. But the idea that people will move to the burbs and choose to rent instead of own in a single family home, has has been established, tens of millions for many, many years.

Scott Lawlor:

And so the thesis around single family rental from a development perspective, is creating the same product, but then bringing to bear some of what we bring to bear in a multifamily community, meaning amenities, services, all that stuff. So if you can move to the burbs, not cut a check for a down payment, not go on a mortgage, have the maintenance guy come fix stuff, have a gym, have a pool, have a club house. It might be a best of all worlds. So we really think there’s a business there.

Ryan Morfin:

Yeah, no. It is definitely an institutionalized asset class where like you mentioned earlier, but there’s bigger players, aggregating portfolios. And so it’s going to be an interesting, I think, a new sub-asset class of residential for investors in the future. So go going back to maybe just the development piece of multifamily. So how has the lending market shifted through COVID for new developments? How have you seen construction financing price out and gap up?

Scott Lawlor:

Well, for us, it has not been impacted quite as much because we’re a relatively low loan to value player anyway. So if you were in the business of trying to borrow every dollar you can, where you’ve been hurt, primarily is obviously lenders have haircut proceeds. So if you wanted to borrow 75 LTV before, that’s pretty tough to do now, but if you are 55 to 60 LTV player to begin with, then it’s really not been eventful and we’ve not seen meaningful price moving here.

Ryan Morfin:

Hmm. Interesting. Is there still the availability though? Is it widely available still to get loans for multifamily?

Scott Lawlor:

I would say it’s available maybe a little less frothy, a little less lenders tripping over each other fighting to get each loan, but it’s certainly available. We’re in the market for a couple of construction loans right now and we’re not having any problem.

Ryan Morfin:

That’s good. And so as you guys are delivering projects and thinking about, “Okay, maybe have to go back to underwrite.” What would be the entry price points for rental growth? How are you changing your underwriting models today? Are you underwriting just flat across the board rental growth? Or do you guys think it will… Eventually inflation, CPI will start to be underwritten again? Or do you look at it a declining, health of the consumer perhaps?

Scott Lawlor:

Well, we’ve always underwritten marketing rental growth very conservatively anyway. I was just never been a believer of putting spikes in the model in order to get to a number. It seems to me that we’re going to be in a low inflation environment for awhile. Eventually all this capital sloshing about it’s going to do something, but I don’t know that there’s clear agreement on that and exactly how it’s going to manifest itself and when. But for now we haven’t changed our underwriting that much simply because we never really underwrote much North of inflation, if any. And so for instance, the last 10 years, more or less from cycle to cycle, market rental growth on a national basis was in the ballpark of 2X inflation over that same period. So, a pretty strong statistic. And I think a lot of it as a result of some of the stuff I was saying before.

Scott Lawlor:

And so when we think about the world going forward, there’s not much to dial back. We might underwrite 2.5% market rental growth and 2% growth on the OPEX or something like that. A little bit of spread just because it’s reality. But the truth is that’s probably understating this credit. If you asked me, just making a fun bet, I would bet there’s going to be more than a 50 basis point spread for some stretch of years. And then the other thing is, don’t forget on development deals, we’re not underwriting rents tomorrow. If I buy a piece of dirt tomorrow, best case I’m trying to lease units 18 months from now. I’m stabilizing two and a half years from now and so on. And so we believe at least, we’ll be through the worst or COVID by the time we’re leasing units in any piece of dirt that we’re working on right now.

Ryan Morfin:

Has your view on exit cap rates shifted at all? Do you see the disparity between bid-ask and the market today? Do you underwrite and change that metric?

Scott Lawlor:

Well, first we never buy based on a single cap rate. I’m a big believer in sensitivity analysis and understanding a bell curve. Because anyone who thinks they really know what cap rates are going to be for apartment properties in Savannah, Georgia in 2024 is way smarter than me. But cap rates are a very, very interesting conversation right now. Because the single biggest question I’ve been getting the last several months from my investors is, “All right, well, when are we going to get started? When’s there going to be blood in the streets? When are we going to back up the truck wave and all these cheap assets?” And I’ve been engaging in a tremendous game of expectations management. Because a lot of what I said before, we’re in a sector that entered the crisis in very, very good shape. It’s historically resilient. And we just haven’t seen any real meaningful impact on fundamentals. That could change, but that’s so far.

Scott Lawlor:

So we live at the point of intersection of two arenas. There’s fundamentals and cap rates. We just talked about fundamentals. Cap rates, your initial instinct might be “Well, they’re going to gap out because how can they not gap out? Because it’s the worst crisis ever.” And we don’t know yet, because what there is now is a lot of chatter, a lot of price talk, a lot of noise, but not a lot of closed deals post COVID, obviously just yet. But it seems that the idea of a “post COVID discount” is simply not coming to life. Because one capitalist observing how we’ve done in the crisis and along with industrial, we get pretty good grades, not to say the other property types are bad or wrong or whatever, just more volatile.

Scott Lawlor:

And so we have held up very, very well. That’s caught people’s attention in the eyes of institutional capital. I think we might attract more capital into our space. And we were certainly in a very, very liquid place before. So you have a capital flow issue that’s going to impact cap rates. And of course you have a spread issue in the 70 or so basis point tenure treasury world, an industry that’s historically 2 to 250 over. So I don’t think cap rates are going to 275 or 3. But at 4.5… At 475 cap rates are 400 over. Near double the longterm average. What in the world is going to cause cap rates to go higher? So you have a spread issue and you have a capital flow issue. And I’m not saying this because it sounds too goofy to say, but I think at least you could reasonably construct an academic argument that says cap rates and multi could be going the other way. Obviously carving out certain metros where there’s no growth and a lot of new supply and all that stuff. But broadly speaking in our sector right now, we’ll see where the deals get done. But, class A Sun Belt multi is a sub five cap rate all day long.

Ryan Morfin:

And you’ve got a tremendous amount of experience in global gateway cities. How do you think New York’s going to play out in the medium term? You watch footage of what’s been going on in New York City. It’s still a great place to live, but it is changing. I don’t know what your thoughts are about Northern cities like Chicago, San Fran, New York as a livable place. What are your thoughts on that?

Scott Lawlor:

Well, look, I think you have to look short term/longterm. And in the short term clearly there’s been a change. I used to live in Fairfield County, Connecticut. So I’m familiar with the residential market there, have a lot of friends there. And it was horrendous for 15 years. 15 years going the wrong way. And just in the last 90 days, that’s flipped. You read stories, you hear about it, people lining up outside of open houses now around Fairfield County. And that’s a short term reaction, immediate reaction to what’s gone on. So the New York suburbs have gotten a jolt and we see it down here in South Florida. People are moving to Connecticut. They’re moving down here where I am. But that’s immediate.

Scott Lawlor:

Now you asked about longer term. And I believe, terms like forever are thrown around a little bit too much in the height of a crisis. So for instance, if you look at what happened immediately after 9-11, it was accepted conventional wisdom, New York will never be the same, businesses went locate their people and move their people and all this stuff. And travel is going to be impacted. And that lasted for a very short while. And within a few years, by 2004,5 or 6, New York was thriving like never before and on and on. And we can think of many other examples. New York is a special place. It always has been. It’s had its little bit of ebbs and flows, but too, I would not overstate the degree to which this is going to really crush New York in the long, long run. It’s got other things to play through. It’s getting a heck of a reputation as it relates to tax and all this stuff, but I don’t think COVID is going to flip it on its head permanently.

Ryan Morfin:

Yeah. I think new York’s resilient and maybe we’ll get a different mayor, maybe an Anthony Scaramucci administration or Eric Anton administration. But I do think it’s… I’m asking him to right now. I know sometimes he watches some of these episodes, but I tell you, it’s going to take a different mindset to go back and rebrand the city. Because I think that law enforcement is just fed up with some of the things that have been going on. Well, I’d tell you the Sun Belt argument makes a lot of sense. We know a ton of people who are leaving the North, coming down. We got the retirees. And so you’ve got all these folks moving down, building businesses, moving businesses. How has the labor market for construction and the cost structure for materials, given that there’s a trade war on the horizon… Have you seen issues getting access to home building supplies?

Scott Lawlor:

Well, look, that’s ebb and flowed quite a bit the last few years. We experienced a run up there for a while, which is, a difficulty when you have a deal under contract and you’re trying to make a budget work, but in the long run, it’s not a bad fact for the business to the extent that it constraints new supply a little bit. And if anything, what’s going on right now is certainly going to hit new supply further in the short run. Jobs are going to get pulled in all this stuff. And so we’re seeing a little bit of softening around cost, but not enough to really, really move the dial and I don’t think sustainable. Now these jobs are getting postponed. They’re not getting put to bed.

Ryan Morfin:

Are you seeing some of the contractors move to just straight cost plus? Or are you still getting min-max bids from folks as you guys are bidding out the work?

Scott Lawlor:

We’re usually do in GMX bids. We’ve actually started self performing as well. We’ve developed a contracting capability. We went live around one deal last year when we had a GC on one of our jobs go bankrupt. And I was advise that the best way to handle it was to step into the GC shoes as it relates to insurance as it relates to lender and as it related to the subs and not blowing up all the subcontracts. And so we created an entity and stepped into their shoes. Now that was a job that was already halfway out of the ground. But what it did is got us thinking about it. And we now have internalized that capability and selectively will self perform.

Ryan Morfin:

And do you see that there might be some development projects that the banks are going to grab from under-capitalized developers that folks like yourself that are better capitalized can go in and finish? Or do you look at a hole in the ground as something that you’re not as interested in grabbing, fixing other people’s problems?

Scott Lawlor:

I would love to do something. I don’t know that there’ll be a ton of it. Look, it’s real estate. So there’s always, anecdotally, there will always be some stuff here and there, but excuse me. Again, I don’t think we have a blood in the streets situation coming in class A and B, multifamily, Sun Belt U.S., Just it’s not going to be the case.

Ryan Morfin:

Yeah. Well, I think the takeaway is you said it and not a lot of people are saying it, is that there could be the perfect storm with low interest rates where cap rates can go further down and we become more like a Japanese style hard asset economy. Do you think rates ever go negative in the U.S. Just given your historical perspective?

Scott Lawlor:

I don’t know. It seems like the concept’s not very popular right now. I’m talking about the Fed and I guess the president would do it if he could. And the answer is, who knows. If you asked me to guess, I would guess no, but not with tremendous conviction.

Ryan Morfin:

Well, the takeaway is if there’s still people moving and there’s still population growth, they’re going to need a place to live. And I think one of the last things they’re going to stop paying is their phone bill and their rent. So I do think it is a pretty safe place and we’ve continued to invest in multifamily pretty aggressively. But how has the permanent financing of multifamily assets changed if at all, or has it remained very stable with some of the government supported entities?

Scott Lawlor:

Yeah. So similar to what I said about construction, we’ve been heavily an agency borrower and Freddie/Fannie, but probably even a little more Freddy, but we’re a low LTV borrower. So what’s gone on hasn’t impacted us very much. We’re not out looking for any perm loans right now. But we like to borrow at a low LTV where we’re able to get interest only, which permits us a little bit better debt coverage ratio, and a little bit better current return, at about 60 or so LTV, that’s our sweet spot loan. And I think that’s still out there. I think it’ll be conservative in their underwriting and all that stuff, but the agencies haven’t gone out of the market on that basis.

Ryan Morfin:

So given that we do have some clouds on the horizon, what are some macro silver linings you see for the U.S. Economy going forward?

Scott Lawlor:

Well, look, the main one is the big picture. It’s easy to talk about all the problems, but if you compare us to the other 200 countries around the world, whose hand of cards would you rather be holding. And sure there’s stuff, and we’re certainly going to be in for an interesting, three, four months. This will be an eventual election, if nothing else. But I’m 34 years in the business. This is my third cycle. I’m sorry, it’s my fourth cycle. In the early nineties, real estate had what everyone else had in ’08. We had a mild cycle around the .com crash in 2000. And of course we had ’08 and now we’re dealing with COVID.

Scott Lawlor:

And in the depth of a crisis, it’s always easy to feel like, man, this time it’s different. It’s going to last forever. And then, the U.S. economy finds a way. The U.S. economy is extraordinarily resilient. It’s extraordinarily dynamic. And you have 330 million people needing goods and services, and you have solid institutions and you have highly liquid capital markets. And it seems to me that obviously a vaccine will be like a switch flipping, but even ahead of a vaccine, a lot of the economic metrics are pretty strong right now. We got to get through this little bit of a spike we’re experiencing particularly down here in Florida and in Texas and so on, but we will, we will. Already, I think there’s some leveling in some of the curves. We don’t view this as a 1930 situation. We think we’re going to get through it.

Scott Lawlor:

I’m not a believer in forecasting. What’s GDP growth in 21? Anyone who thinks they can, I think is kidding themselves. But we think we’re moving the right way. And relative to the worst case scenario in March or April, that we might’ve talked about [inaudible 00:29:01] from an economic perspective, obviously despite this causing some trouble, but I don’t think we feel this spike represents… We’re not going to shut down. We’re not putting 40 million people out of a job [inaudible 00:29:15].

Ryan Morfin:

Are you reading any books of interest or following any podcasts or any news sources that you think helped shape your view?

Scott Lawlor:

Well, I’m reading a lot of books that are not necessarily related to what I do for a living. Longer term, bigger picture. We could talk about artificial intelligence and the impact on mankind over the next 50 years, but I’m not investing based on that. I track the basic economic and financial market news, same as anyone. But a little bit less from a perspective… I’m known among my friends and in the business, I’m just not a believer in forecasting. I think right now, we’re all inundated. There’s always a conference call or webinar or whatever about COVID and what’s going to happen with the economy. And you can make a list of half a dozen hall of fame name rock stars over here that think its the end of the world and half a dozen hall of fame rock stars over here that think it’s a V shape recovery.

Scott Lawlor:

And they’re all pretty smart. From every academic institution, government agency, eye bank, what have you. And I just don’t believe it’s knowable. I think the thing to do is to take a view that says… In fact, Jamie Diamond said the other day that the bell curve is as flat as he’s ever seen it. The range of outcomes in the next quarter or two is very wide. Again, thankfully in a development deal we’re not really worried until 2022, because we’re not going to be leasing units until then. But our job is to keep a finger closely on the pulse, know what’s going on. And most, most, most importantly, structure our deals so that they’re built to write out down cycles. The resilience of the position is how you ride out a down cycle. You ride out enough down cycles, all of a sudden you look like a genius in the long run.

Scott Lawlor:

And really the key is A, our sector, which is very low beta and resilient, all that stuff, and leverage. And in our operating properties we have a portfolio wide debt coverage ratio of greater than 2 to 1. In the apartment sector, that’s a lot of coverage between NOI and debt service. It would take something way, way worse than ’08, way, way worse than COVID before I had to worry about paying debt service. And so, we view that as our job is to know what’s going on and keep an eye on and structure to ride out the down cycles. But I never get on a call with investors and say, “Let me tell you what’s going to happen next year.”

Ryan Morfin:

Well, Scott, we appreciate you coming on and talking to us about the development market and concur with a lot of what you said. So thank you so much for joining us. And we look forward to inviting you back in a few months and talk about post-election, whose forecasts were really terrible. And maybe what the view looks like in 21.

Scott Lawlor:

Hopefully we’ll have a clear cut post election the day after. We’ll see.

Ryan Morfin:

Yeah. I’m hoping we know who’s president by January, 2021.

Scott Lawlor:

Well, thanks a lot for having me.

Ryan Morfin:

You got it. Thanks for coming on. Thanks for watching Non-Beta Alpha and before we go, please remember to like, and subscribe on Apple podcast or on YouTube Channel. This is Non-Beta Alpha and now you know.

 

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